Episode #162: ‘Grit for the Grid and Prioritizing Reliability’ with Suzanne Ogle, President & CEO of Southern Gas Association [an Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast]

In her second appearance on the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast, Suzanne sheds light on the delicate balance between renewable energy adoption and grid reliability. With a keen focus on effective communication and strategic planning, Suzanne walks podcast host Jason Price and producer Matt Chester through the complexities of resource adequacy, spare margin, and the evolving role of natural gas in maintaining grid resilience. From advocating for fuel choice to navigating policy landscapes, Suzanne provides actionable strategies for utilities to navigate the path towards a sustainable, reliable, and cost-effective energy future. Listen in as this conversation delves into the crucial discussions shaping the energy transition and envision the future through Suzanne’s insightful lens.

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Thanks to the sponsor of this episode of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast: West Monroe. 

Key Links:

Suzanne’s first appearance on the podcast: https://energycentral.com/o/energy-central/episode-123-exploring-role-gas-decarbonization-journey-suzanne-ogle-president-and 

Suzanne Ogle’s Energy Central Profile: https://energycentral.com/member/profile/suzanne-ogle/about  

Did you know? The Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast has been identified as one of the industry’s ‘Top Energy Podcasts’: blog.feedspot.com/energy_podcasts/ 

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TRANSCRIPT

Jason Price:

Welcome to the fourth season of the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast. We bring leading minds from the energy industry into the podcast booth to discuss the challenges and trends that are transforming and modernizing our energy system. New for 2024, our listeners can now submit a recorded question to a future podcast episode. Just look for the SpeakPipe link in the show notes below this episode, and leave us a voicemail with a question for a future guest. A quick thank you to West Monroe, our sponsor of today’s show. Now, let’s talk energy.

I’m Jason Price, Energy Central Podcast host and director with West Monroe, coming to you from New York City. With me, as always, from Orlando, Florida, is Energy Central producer and community manager, Matt Chester.

Matt, sometimes we are fortunate to welcome back previous guests who have updates to share, new stories to tell, and ultimately additional wisdom to drop. Today is one of those episodes, as we welcome back Suzanne Ogle, the president and CEO of the Southern Gas Association. Can you give us a rundown on the first episode we had with Suzanne?

Matt Chester:

Yeah, Jason, happy to do so. We had Suzanne on the podcast for the first time in May of last year. That was episode number 123, titled Exploring the Role of Gas in the Decarbonization Journey. I’ll definitely leave a link to that episode in the show notes, so any of our listeners can choose to listen to that one as well as today’s episode. But the theme is just what it sounds like. Suzanne joined us to share that the gas industry, it’s not in a fight against the decarbonization journey, but instead agrees about this critical pathway and has been highlighting the ways that the gas sector can have the ability to be a key partner to renewables in the years to come, enabling a greater overall pursuit of low and no carbon energy.

Jason Price:

Yeah, absolutely. We’re thrilled to have Suzanne with us again. As president of the Southern Gas Association, Suzanne brings a wealth of experience and passion to the clean energy landscape. As a strategic communicator, she believes in the transformative power of effective communication to foster relationships, seize opportunities, and drive innovation towards as sustainable, clean energy future. Suzanne is a visionary leader known for her big picture thinking, innovative mindset, and problem solving approach grounded in an asset based philosophy.

Please join me in welcoming back Suzanne Ogle to the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

Suzanne Ogle:

Thanks, Jason. Glad to be here.

Jason Price:

We are thrilled to have you on again. Suzanne, let’s just jump into things. You recently published a whitepaper titled Grit For the Grid. We’ll be sure to include a link in the show notes on where to find this paper. Can you start us off with an executive summary of what was published?

Suzanne Ogle:

Sure. Historically, the United States energy system was viewed as reliable. The public has really grown accustomed to its omnipresence and its benefits. I think for most people in industrial societies, energy is there whenever you need it and it’s also somewhat mysterious. They don’t really know how they get their energy source, they don’t know what’s responsible for turning their lights on, they just flip the switch. Or they turn the heat and the dial, and there goes the thermostat.

If you fast-forward two decades, this reliable energy system that everybody came to know and depend on isn’t necessarily the case anymore. I think it was in 2023, at the end of it, I think there was 345 electrical disturbances that impacted about five million customers. They impacted about five million customers, that’s a huge increase, about a 1400%. 1400% increase.

That’s really why I wrote Grit For the Grid, because we’re at a critical moment in our nation’s energy future and I really wanted to try to raise the energy IQ. That was the fundamental aspect of it. But really, the fact is that energy and economic development are linked together. To meet the growing energy demand and address climate change, we have to have solutions we can implement today and have a longterm plan. Climate change, it’s a very complex problem and it really requires a deep understanding of all the different aspects before we start to make these sweeping changes. Energy infrastructure can be very, very long-lasting, so decisions that we make now about how we deploy and regulate energy sources will have a material influence on energy access. It’s also going to influence geopolitical and the economic outcomes of other countries.

That’s the foundation for a why I wrote it. I think, when I look at today’s discussions, they’re on reducing carbon emissions and center around quick fixes. But advances in technology, connected devices and all the other things that are going to transform the way we think about energy brings us back to the importance of reliability and how natural gas fits into that longterm energy equation.

Jason Price:

Yeah, absolutely. But among the key concerns brought by the paper is the difference between renewables as a clean energy solution, but also a potential reliability challenge. So while public support for renewables is high, intermittency remains a significant challenge. Tell us, how can utilities communicate this effectively and educate the public on limitations of renewables while still working towards decarbonization goals?

Suzanne Ogle:

Well, I think it starts with raising the energy IQ, and that’s through programs like yours. Any opportunity that you get with an informed source to be able to talk about and provide clear and transparent information about where the energy’s coming from. The majority of the work is really going to lie on state regulators and industry to develop solutions that are better aligned, that align the gas and the electric industry so that we maintain and improve the reliability of both the gas and the electric systems that our nation depends on.

When I think about it from that point of view, you just have to say to people there’s a big challenge here, and we have to be able to communicate and address this in a way that is not finger pointing or exclusive, and allows people to think through solutions by looking at them all the way from cradle to grave. I think that’s really part of a very important aspect of how do we get to where we can address the reliability challenge.

Jason Price:

Our audience is pretty well-informed, however there’s terminology that is unique to the gas space, including resource adequacy and spare margin. Define these for us, and how does gas play a role in maintaining reliability during such scenarios where this would come up?

Suzanne Ogle:

Sure. This industry is full of acronyms and terms, so everybody might think they know them but there’s always more that you can know.

If we go back to resource adequacy, sometimes called RA, it’s just really a regulatory construct developed to ensure that there’s going to be sufficient resources to serve the electric demand under all but the most extreme conditions. It was a result back of California’s need to develop assurance of adequate supply. I think it’s back about 2000, they were having rolling blackouts, and price spikes, and power shortages. The legislator got together and they enacted Section 380 in the public utilities code, and they required the PC and CACEO a program so that all the retail load serving entities would have to maintain physical generating capacity and electrical demand response that would be adequate to meet its load requirement during peak, and also to have sufficient operating reserves. Essentially, they need to own or contract sufficient resources to meet peak demand, plus a reserve margin. And the actual dispatch of the resource to meet load in real time is performed on an economic basis, with the lowest variable cost resources that are committed first.

Gas really plays an essential role, because each of the LSEs, they have to procure a certain amount of resource adequacies from flexible resources that can ramp up or down on short notice to meet those variations load and intermittent energy production. Essentially, this is to address the duck curve problem, which is really California, they have such a high solar adoption rate, that that really creates a challenge for the utility to balance out that demand on the grid, because you have an increased need for electric generators to ramp up quickly with the energy production when that sun sets and that contribution from the solar panels is falling.

Jason Price:

Right. This is all, in many respects, a reliability issue as much as anything else. Let’s talk about that. I believe your position at SGA is that we’re heading toward higher energy costs because of the dependency on renewable energy. You have a perspective that utilities should consider, so talk to us about this. What should utilities be doing to properly balance cost with reliability now and into the future?

Suzanne Ogle:

Yeah, this goes back to where I started. All energy sources, including renewable energy, I think should go through some kind of systematic full life cycle analysis. Meaning from your material acquisition, to your manufacturing, to the use of it, and even the final disposition of that. Those assessments will really help delineate what the full benefits are, and the costs of a fuel or a process, and allow decision makers to select the most effective solution.

Right now, that’s not utilities are doing. They’re rolling out alternative rate plans to improve reliability, asking people to get off the system. But we need to make sure that we’re designing rates for an equitable energy evolution. California’s electricity prices are high and rising. I think they’re the highest in the country and they pose a really heavy burden for the economically vulnerable households. I think I talked to you last time about my aunt and uncle who lived out there that were on a fixed income, and I looked at their electricity prices, they live in a 100% electric house because it was built in the ’70s. With the state’s recovering substantial fixed costs through that increased per kilowatt-hour pricing, the price customers pay is really much higher than what it actually costs to provide electricity.

That’s why I think it’s so important for utilities to look at that full life cycle analysis to understand what is that cost. Then, how are we going to mitigate the impact of that in a way that makes sense? That’s from planning to have an all of the above energy mix, including gas, and use their reliability and the cost in a way that makes sense. Otherwise, if utility wants to meet their goals, they’re going to have to require a large percentage of customers to change their energy usage behaviors, and I see that as unlikely.

Jason Price:

Let’s talk about fuel choice. You’ve mentioned this in your writings and in some of your presentations. Given that our listeners are in the utility space, what advice do you have for them on how they can assist in the advocacy for fuel choice, while ensuring a clear understanding of the associated costs?

Suzanne Ogle:

Yeah. Well, reliability isn’t a function of any individual generation technology, but it’s really a function of the electricity system as a whole and that’s why we have to have an all of the above solution. We need power systems that can match the supply and demand in a coordinated and flexible way.

If you’re in a utility, I think one of the things that utilities do is they provide billing that people don’t understand. When they don’t understand what they’re getting billed for, where their power’s coming from, it creates additional confusion. You see these states pushing back on fuel choice because once they understand the implications of some of the choices that are being made and the cost impact on them, they’re starting to push back and saying, “We don’t want to have these mandated on us and we’re not going to absorb these costs.” That’s why I think, really transparency, and a really clear way to understand what you’re paying for and how you’re paying for it, it’s complicated. It makes things complicated. I don’t know that there’s a lot of stakeholders that want to talk in a rate making process, and I’m not sure all of them really understand the intricacies of how a utility works or how an energy system works.

I think they’re going to have to start to be more transparent and clear in how their systems are working. For instance, if they are pulling in gas to back up the system, they need to be clear about that. “We had to pull on gas to back it up.” Listen, as you have … I think Palo Alto just pushed back on the electrification, but as you have additional cities either doing electrification, you have additional EV loads on systems, it creates a much higher demand. You can look at all the data centers and the demand the data centers create. It’s exorbitant.

Without some kind of permitting overhaul so that we can get adequate systems in place to keep a lower carbon system going, we’re going to be running up with really high costs, and people pulling off systems. I think the utilities have a responsibility to make sure that they’re very clear to the general public about exactly the challenges that they’re dealing with.

Jason Price:

Yeah, I fully agree. Just to elaborate on the complexity, in the industry it is a certain understanding, but to the general public, it doesn’t fully understand the complexity and challenges that we need to think through to make sure that we’re prepared.

My next question is really around the trends in the industry in deprioritizing fossil fuel. Of course, the loudest was this past year, the COP28, declaring the beginning of the end. This transition is very hard to map through to make sure that we maintain this reliability. You talk to the gas utilities all the time, so share with us the conversations you’re having with them. What are they saying, what’s the mood, what are the gas customers telling you? And the RTOs, basically trying to wade through this as well. Just share with us your insight that you’ve experienced here.

Suzanne Ogle:

Well, you can go to COP28, and they can stand up there and make a demand that they’re going to deprioritize fossil fuel, and you can be here and know that there’s a huge line of people waiting to get gas at their houses. There are systems that are needing gas, they’re looking for storage any way they can get it. Storage in terms of gas, storage in terms of battery. I’ve got somebody coming to speak at our spring gas conference that’s got compressed natural gases storage for utility. But a lot of the solutions for storage and the reliability are coming from gas.

While they can go over there and talk about deprioritizing fossil fuel, the reality is here we need more of it. We need more of it, and the systems need more of it, and the utilities are scrambling around trying to make sure that they’re going to have a system that can perform in all the conditions. When I talk to my members, I’m telling you, all of them have record demand days on gas. Record. Not only once, but consistently. The systems performed extremely well, and it wasn’t because of happenstance, it was a lot of strategic coordination on the system’s part, especially on my operator’s parts. They get credit for that. There’s unicorns and rainbows, and then there’s the reality of running a system.

Jason Price:

Yeah, that makes complete sense. At the end of the day, this is all about the IRP, the integration resource plan. Talk to us about that. How is that being managed? Where’s the role of gas and how are you seeing this managed at the utilities when they work on and publish their IRPs?

Suzanne Ogle:

Yeah. No, really interesting. As a matter of fact, at my management conference that’s coming up in April, I’ve got a roundtable on that just because it’s so important. It really takes a lot of alignment, and coordination, and understanding. What does it really look like to make sure that the gas is available for those systems? I think the role of the integrated resource plan is changing and more important now than ever. It needs to be a very coordinated effort so that we can deliver what the public needs us to deliver.

Jason Price:

Suzanne, on the show we’ve had leaders from national research labs, institutes, and academics who run scenarios of future systems and economies. Perhaps putting you on the spot here, with all the net-zero and carbon free goals by 2050, what does this future look like through your lens?

Suzanne Ogle:

It looks like a lot of assurance for gas through my lens. By the way, I’m the president of a research organization so I understand research, and I think it’s very important, and there’s a lot of gains to be had from it. But research is research, and then again, there’s the practicality of running a system.

I was at a research firm who was modeling for California, taking gas out. What did it look like if they took gas out of California? The price went from about 1.40 up to 18-something. Then there was about a 60% delta. I said, “Where are you going to get that generation from?” “We don’t know, we just model it.” It happened to be a hot day in Texas when I was there, at that lab. I pulled up the ERCOT grid, just for sport. It was the middle of summer, and we were running at I think it was 60, or maybe even 70% natural gas in Texas in the summer. That’s not the cold, it’s for the air conditioning.

They can model things, it’s important to model. But it’s also important to be able to adequately address the deltas and the findings of that. Not to mention that going from 1.40 up to $18, that’s a whole different scenario. That’s a scenario that can be addressed through pricing, or subsidies. I don’t know how you’re going to have Americans go from 1.40 to 18. But finding the fuel to fill the gap is the bigger issue, and that’s why I say this is a longterm, very positive play for gas.

Listen, as we think about it, we’re never going to lose sight of reducing emissions and making sure that we do that. There’s all kinds of ways we can do that, that involve new technology. As much as a data center or new technology’s going to pull a higher demand on power, it’s also going to create opportunities using new technology, AI, and other things to think about how we do things more efficiently. If you look at hospitals, they’re running on gas. You don’t see any hospital not running on gas because they have to have that assurance of power. It’s just like the data centers. They need to know that they are going to be able to have power all the time, it can’t be intermittent.

I was talking to somebody the other day that told me, gosh I want to say it’s Amazon, just hired a chief nuclear officer, because they were going to put the data center on nuclear because they couldn’t rely on the intermittent sources. They had to be sure of it, so they need gas and they need nuclear.

Jason Price:

Yeah, that continuity’s important, no doubt about it.

Well, Suzanne, thanks for your insight. We’re going to give you the final word. But if you recall from the last time you were on the show, we have something called the Lightning Round, which gives us an opportunity to learn more about you the person, rather than you the professional. We have five questions to ask, and we ask you to keep your response to one word or phrase. Are you ready?

Suzanne Ogle:

Okay, let’s go.

Jason Price:

All right. What was your 2024 New Year’s resolution?

Suzanne Ogle:

Family.

Jason Price:

Do you have a go-to karaoke song?

Suzanne Ogle:

Sound of Silence because I’m a horrible singer.

Jason Price:

What was your dream job when you were growing up, if it wasn’t in energy?

Suzanne Ogle:

I wanted to be a pilot.

Jason Price:

Do you have a special skill or secret hobby that you wish to share?

Suzanne Ogle:

A secret hobby? You know, I’m going to paint this weekend. Not my house, I’m going to paint a picture.

Jason Price:

Very nice. What is your next big goal for your career?

Suzanne Ogle:

You know what, I love what I do right now. My goal is to continue to do it and have more impact.

Jason Price:

Nicely stated. You’ve done a great job navigating through the Lightning Round. As I said, I’m going to give you the final-

Suzanne Ogle:

Good thing I know myself.

Jason Price:

Well, we’re going to give you the final word. With an audience filled with utility industry representatives, what’s the takeaway lesson you hope they retain from today’s conversation?

Suzanne Ogle:

I think it’s really about collaboration, education, and going out there and being an advocate for helping the general public understand what is required to create an energy system that will supply the amount of energy that we need, and is at an affordable rate, and is done responsibility. I think everybody needs to be a champion for natural gas, for energy, for collaboration, and an all of the above approach. Anybody who wants to go into their corner and box isn’t going to help anybody out. I think everybody has to work together. That would be my pleas to everybody, is to make sure that you are using every amount of information and education that you have to help inform the general public and raise the energy IQ.

Jason Price:

I would say that is well stated. This was a great conversation. I’m excited to see what our listeners will think, what comments they’ll leave on the Energy Central platform. Hopefully, you can hop back into the platform and answer any questions or comments that may come your way, Suzanne.

Until then, I just want to thank you for sharing your insights with us on today’s episode of the podcast.

Suzanne Ogle:

It’s an honor to be here with you guys. I appreciate it very much.

Jason Price:

Thank you. We appreciate you. You can always reach Suzanne through the Energy Central platform, where she welcomes your questions and comments.

We also want to give a shout-out thanks to the podcast sponsors that made today’s episode possible. Thanks to West Monroe. West Monroe is a leading partner for the nation’s largest electric, gas, and water utilities, working together to drive grid modernization, clean energy, and workforce transformation. West Monroe’s comprehensive services are designed to support utilities in advancing their digital transformation, building resilient operations, securing Federal funding, and providing regulatory advisory support. With a multidisciplinary team of experts, West Monroe offers a holistic approach that addresses the challenges of the grid today and provides innovative solutions for a sustainable future.

Once again, I’m your host Jason Price. Plug in and stay fully charged in the discussion, by hopping into the community at energycentral.com. We’ll see you next time at the Energy Central Power Perspectives Podcast.

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About Energy Central Podcasts

The ‘Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast’ features conversations with thought leaders in the utility sector. At least twice monthly, we connect with an Energy Central Power Industry Network community member to discuss compelling topics that impact professionals who work in the power industry. Some podcasts may be a continuation of thought-provoking posts or discussions started in the community or with an industry leader that is interested in sharing their expertise and doing a deeper dive into hot topics or issues relevant to the industry.

The ‘Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast’ is the premiere podcast series from Energy Central, a Power Industry Network of Communities built specifically for professionals in the electric power industry and a place where professionals can share, learn, and connect in a collaborative environment. Supported by leading industry organizations, our mission is to help global power industry professionals work better. Since 1995, we’ve been a trusted news and information source for professionals working in the power industry, and today our managed communities are a place for lively discussions, debates, and analysis to take place. If you’re not yet a member, visit www.EnergyCentral.com to register for free and join over 200,000 of your peers working in the power industry.

The Energy Central Power Perspectives™ Podcast is hosted by Jason Price, Community Ambassador of Energy Central. Jason is a Business Development Executive at West Monroe, working in the East Coast Energy and Utilities Group. Jason is joined in the podcast booth by the producer of the podcast, Matt Chester, who is also the Community Manager of Energy Central and energy analyst/independent consultant in energy policy, markets, and technology.  

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